went to see the doctor that butchered me
Went to the office made a speech to the patients. I got peoples attention, i think some people must have thought i was crazy, other people were horrified and believed what i was saying. I think the two patients too my right had surgeries that went horribly wrong, and the one on my left had surgery that affected her. Some gems the doctor told me. The ENT doctor that my nose looked good. He said that he can refer me to another ENT to help. Also he told me to see a psyciatrist because i wasnt handling things well. He also said that he didnt appreciate me talking to the patients in the waiting room. He said youre a chiropractor how would you like it if i talked to people like that in your office. Also when i told him my breaths are more shallow he said how can that be possible since more air is going in my nose. When i asked him why he didnt warn me he said he cant warn people of every single complication. He also said he has been doing this for 17 years. Someone in the office told me that i'm young healthy and educated i wont get people to have sympathy for me by doing this. I told him i dont care what people think of me i was doing it to warn patients. The office also charged me twenty dollars to get the doctors notes. At the end the doctor asked me to please leave his office. Nothing got through to the doctor I told the doctor what he did to me. When he asked me how can my breath be more shallow, and i answered him he had this confused look on his face. When i told him i dont have any "booger" he said i dont need "booger" Anyways this is exactly what i thought would happen, he minimized it and wanted me to leave his office, and he wanted to get back to his practise. I'm sure he has done this to other people.

don't complain. Do. Sue!

That's pretty kool that you are a chiropractor. Sorry you have to go through this nose crap...

Went to a lawyer he said its impossible to even try to sue without another specialist that would take my side. The ENT doctors are not interested to help sue other doctors. This is why the problem is going on, if more people sued these doctors and won the message would get out. I understand some insurance companies dont pay for turbinectomies precisely because of this. If i could find an ENT doctor willing to tell the truth i would go to court.

Did you get the name of the girl who had surgery and wasn't happy. lawyers probably like strenght in numbers. Some lawyyers have their own speacilist you may want to try to find one that uses an ent if there is one in your own area. LOL "I dont understand the more open the better" Obviously not!

I will phone every personal injury lawyer in the phone book, and i will try to make appointments with other ENT doctors(i put my shot at less then 1/1000 that an ENT doctor will testify against another ENT doctor). But i really dont think nothing will come of it. Doesnt mean i wont try. TE i agree that everyone should sue. We should also make websites with the doctors that screwed us up with there pictures, and we should warn as many people as possible. Apparantely that woman who is from Toronto thought it was the same doctor that butchered her but it turned out it was another butcher.

B, I got a chuckle out of your story. I like that. Isn't that what we all feel like doing--just blow it wide open. It is still almost unbelievable to me that a doctor would drill holes in, and cut bone and cartilege out of a person's skull, and rip their mucous membranes out--DESTROY their nose! In my case, a person with NO sinus problems. My surgeon didn't even mention to me that he was doing this. There is no way in hell I would have showed up for that. I did not know he had done it until a month and a half later when I read the surgery report. If someone had broken into my apartment and maimed and tortured me, destroyed my breathing and life, he would spend the rest of his life in prison. This is worse because these "doctors" are posing as healers. They had our trust. Something has to be done. What happened to all of us is evil.

I still think we all could file for a class action law suit. Something has to be done, but after that ENTs who do turbinectomies will be pissed because a lot of them generate their money from those surgeries.

3, The problem with a class action law suit is that we don't all suffer from the same severity of symptoms and same degree of resection. In fact, many people here are ENS-type, which means that they degree of turbinate reduction is considered very conservative even in the eyes of those ENTs that respect ENS. We could definitely have a case though against aggressive turbinectomies. That I know for sure. Meaning - total or subtotal inferior turbinectomies. BIGPAPA, If I managed to convince the first ENT I went to to testify for me (and I live in a country were until recently radical turbinectomies were considered a great thing... the entire population here is only 7 million), then I cannot except the "no chances" estimation of yours. In addition, I know of several Americans who sued. Most, very successfully. However, they all took a compromise they were offered so that's why you never heard of them. Their silence was bought. I'm ashamed to say that I did the same thing. I was under such tremendous pressure to end it that after 2 years I cracked. You have to understand that suing is most difficult and it psychologically requires you to go to war instead of concentrating on healing. It's worth while, though, although you don't think so at the time usually. But, if you can, I recommend it to all and although the money and winning is most important - the empowerment you get from it as a patient and as a victim is even more important. When I signed the gag act to get the money (or half of what I wanted) fast, I thought I should think 100% business - as if getting the money was the most important thing. Now I know that I missed a golden opportunity to heal psychologically as well, and that will never happen again. On top of everything, if before I could tell people about how that so and so doctor ruined my life, now I can't even mention his name in private conversations, because I must be most careful about the details I disclose, so all in all I act cautious and don't say a thing... conclusion: If you truly have a strong case - there is no reason you won't find the help you need. A tip: you don't have to say "ENS" to everyone. Simply talk about your symptoms and that you have read the extensive literature against turbinectomies which warns from precisely the kind of complications that you are experiencing. Also, that ENT might have done you a favor - you most probably are psychiatrically disabled by the physical disability and ordeal he caused you. I bet you have PTSD from it, in minimum, probably - PTSD and Major depression. Did you have that before the turbinectomy? - No!, is it a known side effect? - Yes! - you can add that to your claims but only after you find a supportive ENT. Following the perceived difficulty of many here to find interested and enthusiastic attorneys, which is not a fact I can accept, never the less keeps on repeating it self, I have been thinking of this: Do some serious research about the attorney you approach. Many of those malpractice lawyers are clinical doctors by training who became appalled with what they saw and left their profession to study law. Among that breed I bet you could find a couple of ex ENT's. If not, then I suggest you look for a young lawyer. The kind who love a good fight but that you can also communicate with. The kind who still remembers why he went to law school to begin with and doesn't take cases based on the expectations of his pay check alone, like older lawyers with several kids, a big partner ship, 2 divorces and 3 or 4 mortgages do (or have to do).

Listen TE like i said i will contact every lawyer in the phone book. And will make a case. Youre right I shouldnt say "no chance", but i do i believe its slim to none. But i will try aggressively. This is what the lawyers that i talked to so far told me. I talked to two. They said i would have to find an ENT doctor willing to testify and that would be extremelly difficult. Then they said a case can be made but chances are stacked against me. I'm glad you sued the doctor and won money, but what would happen if that doctor you tried to convince said no. I know you would go to another and another. It wasnt 100% in your control. You were successful in convincing the ENT doctor to testify against the other doctor, good for you, but that doesnt mean everyone will be. I will talk to every ENT doctor that I can get a referral to and make a plea. Also i will phone every personal injury lawyer to make a plea. I will even ask the lawyers if i cant find a doctor in Toronto to testify against this doctor can i use a doctor from the states. I will do this. But at the end of the day its not in my control. I will do whats in my control. Its kind of like my turbinates. I dont have control, i will do everything in my power to fight, eat healthy, supplements, DR. HOUSER(appointment next week(Tuesday), accupuncture,chiropractic care, sesame seed oil in the nose, irrigation twice a day, stand on my head, saline spray, stand on my head, biofeedback, hypnosis, move to a warm climate. I will fight with everything i have left even though its harder to fight now because of this. In the end though its not in my control.

Also, I believe I gave and give enough of myself to deserve a little more respect. Plus I have been in this game only 11 years which is slightly longer than the few weeks you have been suffering... so give me some credit that I know what I'm talking about: All I said was that it is logically unacceptable that you cannot find a doctor who will testify. This is a myth that patients tell themselves in order to forgive themselves for not having enough guts to pursue this, or simply because they can't bring themselves to accept that they never had a case to begin with ("denial" ego defense mechanism, ever heard of it?). If it were true that doctors do not testify against each other - malpractice lawyers would be out of business, while in reality their business is blooming. Suing is difficult much more than having surgery, and it is traumatic and hell. No one wins or manages to find an expert witness, especially not against turbinectomies, because they are "lucky" - so give me some credit for my hard work there too please! The doctor I persuaded took three hours to persuade and trust me that my case is a much stronger case than most you have ever heard off. I simply did my research and found out these facts: 98% of people who were damaged by doctors do not sue, because they fear the process or they fear repercussion and revenge from the doctor, his friends, other doctors, etc'. Most normative people go through life without seeing a courthouse from with in just like most of them will never see an operating theatre from the inside - these are all intuitively bad places in people's mind set and places that are best avoided. Now, I glad that you are such a remarkable exception, but when you lock your self in a dark room with yourself - it wouldn't be such a bad thing to admit your fear to yourself, it will help you handle them. I for sure was scared as hell. Out of the 2% who do sue, only a fraction see the process through. Most compromise. Conclusion: most negligent doctors get away with it because of fear of the patients, just like most victims of sex offenders never complain, and just like battered wives often suffer in silence and never complain. Then the few that do begin to sue give up because of te length of time it seems to take. These are all psycological factors. What I discovered was - that if you don't klet these factors scare you away and do sue - you're chances of at least getting a decent compromise are very high. That's what most victims don't seem to realize. Of course, lawyers won't tell you this because they are flooded with requests and want to chose only the biggest and strogest cases they can get, so they will turn the smaller ones away and downplay your chances. You have to stop acting out of rage and begin to think logically and strategically. And this is perhaps the hardest thing for any victim to do. By the time they realize that it's usually too late. The lawyer who told you your chances were slim did so out of two possibilities: a) You don't really have much of a case, which I know nothing about - because I don't recall how much you were really resected and in what circumstances. If you wish to post a clear and summerized account of this here I will gladly tell you whatI estimate your true chances are. b) Lawyers want to make lots of money. Most know nothing about the nose, like most laymen, and think that it's not really important and can't fetch them much money, compared to the amount of work that has to go into a malpractice law suit, which is a hell of a lot compared to other legal issues. That's why I told you to look perhaps for a young hungry idealist (as second choice, if you can't seem to persuade any of the "heavy cannons"). Besides, the fact that you are trying to persuade doctors to testify only several weeks after your surgery is not very clever. Your case will be much more convincing when they see that your symptoms are long term. Hopefully in a year from now you will not need them anymore, anyway...

Allright TE lets get this straight i respect the fact that you sued your doctor and i respect you for some things. I understand you had something to do with the website i have so much respect for that! Talking to the doctor for 3 hours to convince him is amazing both that he let you talk to him for 3 hours and that you did. Other things i do not respect you for one bit. For example you should look at yourself before you tell others to tone down there language. Congrats on the 11 years of suffering, you beat me its only been 6 weeks youre right i should give you respect(detect the sarcasm). Also because you have been suffering for 11 years you are automatically right about things. Well youre not, it sounds like the argument my ENT was making he has been doing this for 17 years thus he is right what do i know. Just because you did do it and you have been suffering for 11 years does not make this argument right. And the fact some people dont pursue suing there doctors for various reasons does not make your argument right either. I specifically said i will aggressively pursue this with all my heart. I know why a lot of people dont sue but i'm not one of those people. Also i agree somewhat with your analysis on why people dont sue. You say its not logical for me to say it is possible that i wont find an ENT doctor to sue well it is in the realm of possibility you are not the one who is being logical. I believe its more likely that i wont find an ENT doctor to testify against the other doctor. Like i said i will phone every ENT doctor around. Also i will try my best to pursuade the doctors. You said that i should wait till after a year before i sue, well duh. I'm finding out as much information as possible. If i need a doctor to testify against the other doctor it might take time. I am trying to put the wheels in motion if its possible that i can sue, if my symptoms dissapear after some more time then great, obviously i would not sue then. I really dont care to argue with you i think its better to put my limited energy into other things. I do appreciate your knowledge on somethings, and its more important to me that i get your feedback on certain things rather then argue about ridiculous things. I remember in one post you said that manuka honey that was too high might not be good, too me information like that is invaluable. I think you should worry less about getting approval from others on this website, and trying to "win" an argument. If i'm wrong about something i will gladly admit it and appreciate the person who pointed it out. You said that i shouldnt say i have "no chance" and i said you are right. Thanks. What can i say i believe the lawyers who told me i have a low chance of finding a doctor nevermind suing. Anyways really TE you have a problem when you talk with people, at least on this board. Listen i really dont want to argue with you about petty things. I agree that more people should sue and stop making excuses and aggresively pursue. I believe people should make websites with the doctors names on it. Heck make them anonymously. Anyways after reading your responses to other people I am sure you are going to say some ridiculous comments in response to this post. After this I will fight my temptation to respond to these comments because i dont care to go back and forth about nothing. I want all of us to stick together and fight against doctors who have caused us so much suffering. I told my doctor if he will warn patients before the surgery he said he would not he would stick to his 1/100 000 people have an allergic reaction to anesthia and you might have some bleeding but he will take care of that. This is the kind of things i want to focus my attention on.

I gave you a whole lot of practical advice to consider. My initial post to you was completely all business and there was nothing personal there (prove me wrong if you can), you were the one getting personal. I say things in a simple and straight-forward way, yes! but I never become personal unless attacked first. I say things straight-forward on purpose, taking the risk of not winning the popularity contest for doing so. Nobody likes to hear a cold an rational analysis of the facts about their case, like: If you won't be able to convince a doctor - maybe it's not because of the myth that they all stick together, but because of the fact that you don't really have a case, or because you don't know how to present it? Those are all possibilities, at least in theory, are they not? Also, and following my advice in my prior post: You must begin to think more coldly, strategically and rationally, and pay much more attention to details. For example: yes I spent 3 hours trying to persuade that doctor. But who told you that I was the one talking for 3 hours? - you see? you are jumping to conclusions again... and this is not a trivial thing with you, as I have been following all your posts, and found this hotheadedness of yours and tendency to jump to conclusions to be a major part of personality, which you pay and will pay dearly for, as it will severely hinder your chances of ever being helped both legally and medically, unless you begin to curve that tendency of yours. The way I persuaded my expert witness was - first by having a strong case of clear negligence to begin with (that's the first question you should research about your own case and I can help there if you let me). Secondly, by presenting it in such a way that gained his sympathy and made him feel almost immoral to refuse me. So after the first 10 minutes of examining me and listening to my case he spent 2 hours and 50 minutes trying to persuade me that it won't be worth it for me or him. After all that time in which I was silent and let him ventilate his natural fears, I simply approached his conscience in the most polite but direct manner - and asked him if after what he's seen in my case - will he be able to live with himself knowing that the other doctor was ruining other people's lives like he ruined mine, when he could have been stopped??? ...But then again - I had a strong case and I made sure I knew how to present it the right way: For example - I went and took an academic course on "damages law", in my local university. I spent 6 months in research before I even dared to open my mouth, let alone do something dumb like go and trash my surgeon's reputation in front of his stuff and patients and then ask him for all my medical records, thinking that I will actually get them all un-tampered with. I guarantee you that after you humiliated him like that and made your intentions very clear, the chances are that he removed from your personal files everything that could be remotely incriminating and supportive of your claims. This is what I mean that - it's high time you began listening. I gave you a hell of a lot of practical advice in my prior post, which if you listen to, perhaps one day you will have the decency to thank me for. But don't worry I don't expect you too, as I know your type. On a more personal note, as you made this personal to begin with: I did a lot more than "having something to do with the website". Maybe I'll one day simply post the account of the true scale of my contribution. I have refrained until now, because of strategic reasons, which Idoubt you in your current state will be able to understand, but trust me when I tell you that had it not been for me - ENS patients would not have had 10% of the chances of success in suing as they enjoy today, not to mention the increasing level of post op awareness to their symptoms and possible care options. As I suggested in my prior post, I suggest now: You want practical help, not arguments or what you consider as cheap advice? - Fine: Post the details of your case here and I will tell you what I think your chances are, based on my extensive experience which unless you can match - does make me someone much more knowledgeable than you on this subject (unless you have sued for ENS before, have you?). Facts are facts. Can you look past the personal resentment you feel towards my direct style and remember what's important by the end of the day, and perhaps learn to receive some help, or are you going to continue with your hallucinations of publishing names of turbinators and their deeds on the web (without having a court's verdict to prove their negligence)? "Anonymous web sites", please... Wake up! And by the way, unless you get to the point and deal with the facts themselves and not with me as a person, you can forget about me ever helping you, not because I don't want too, but simply because I will understand that it's a waste of time as you are not receptive at all to actually accepting help or listening. I will understand that you are clearly still in a state of shock and will not listen to anyone who might have enough courage and morality to tell you things he knows you need to hear, but will not like to hear one jot. Trust me, it would be much easier for me to suck up to your ego and tell you how brilliantly you are handling your situation and what clever things you are saying and doing. But, sadly I can't do that - because I have a certain disability that came with my ENS - I cannot lie. It's a serious problem, I know, but only if you are really dumb will you listen always to those who make you feel good. Your life and your choice. Food for thought. No hard feelings on my side, if you reconsider. Good luck and goodbye for now.

Big, I read early in your posts that you went to see a lawyer and they told you to go get another ENT that would tell the truth and that you thought it would be impossible because what doctor would want to rat on another doctor.... That is true but if you really suffer from ENS and have a solid case wouldnt it be the lawyers job to find a doctor without any agendas to examine and testify for you?? Find a good lawyer that has experience with plenty of medical malpractice cases... Show them your cat scans and hopsital reports... This was my mistake as I wasted years going from one ent specialist to another and none of them would say anything is wrong because they were probably all on the same board... You need to go straight to the lawyer before the statue of limitations is up in your state...(In NYC it is 2 and a half years and I lost out on my chance...) I strongly believe that if I wouldve went to a lawyer first I would have easily won because of a strong odor coming from my nose... So if anyone on this forum has any severe symptoms please do not waste any time or make the same mistakes I made... Instead of sitting in front of the computer and wasting time you need to take action before time is up and all you can do is sit there and sing that "could've, would've" song...

I am not wasting my time in front of the computer. In six weeks i've learned much more about turbinates . I am leaving for Ohio tomorrow. I have found several different things to help me with this, plus i have made friends who help me and i hope i am helping them. All this from the computer. So again i dont feel i am wasting my time on the computer. I feel more people should post on the site, and take an active role. I understand if they dont everybodys different. I believe people should expose there doctors by going public making a website posting videos, going to the doctors office, suing, writing letters. Fighting back. You read my posts but maybe you should spend more time on the computer reading what i actually said. The lawyer never told me to to find an ENT doctor who is going to tell the truth. The lawyer said simply there is no case without another doctor. I did not say it was impossible i thought that it was slim to none chance that i would find a doctor. No its not the lawyers job to find me a doctor. Its the lawyers job to make money. If he knew of a ENT doctor that works with patients that were butchered he would send me to them because its in his interest. But since he doesnt know of any he cant help me, if i can do the leg work and find a doctor he would be willing to take on the case. Kapeesh. Also if i did find a doctor willing to tell the truth and i used him then i'm sure the next time someone came to him with a butchered nose he would recommend that doctor again. I cant say i suffer from ENS because it too soon after my surgery. ENS is a name given by a few ENTs to a group of patients with severe symptoms. What i do know is the surgeon never warned me of the risks, and minimized them, and he wasnt interested in the truth, he was interested in running a successful practise. Now i am suffering and I am robbed of my full health potential and I am waiting to see how much my body will recover. I am hoping i will recover to the point i am not conscious of my breath for most of the day. Whether or not this is a solid case i dont know i'm not a lawyer. I can tell you it was evil. Thank you for warning me of the statue of limitations that is something I was thinking of this is why i am trying to get the ball rolling so early. I mentioned in my post that i will go to every personal injury lawyer in toronto, so i am going straight to the lawyers. I am not making youre mistake. My mistake was that i trusted the doctor and i never thought that there could be these consequences. I should have done more research especially with my background. This is done now and i have forgiven myself. In some states there are experienced lawyers who have worked these cases, i hope in Toronto there are such lawyers, if there is i guarantee you i will find them. I agree people need to fight more aggresively go to every lawyer they can, and try to make a case. I still believe it is an uphill battle and I believe my chances of winning are still slim to none. I disagree with TE stament that is not logical for me to think that.